Curse

Neo Atomisk · Jun 12, 2009, 02:21 AM // 02:21

...what? Malchor is controlling the southern part of Tyria, not Kryta.
Intresting, I just read that Malchor is the most powerful being in all of tyria... so much for primordus being the leader.

I don't think adding a Dragon where we have no alternatives is that bad.

The far north Dragon could easily be replaced by the ice cliff serpent.

Gmr Leon · Jun 12, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

...what? Malchor is controlling the southern part of Tyria, not Kryta.
I don't think adding a Dragon where we have no alternatives is that bad.

The far north Dragon could easily be replaced by the ice cliff serpent.

It is bad when there is no evidence to support their existence. Also, I think Obrien was trying to indicate the areas the Ancient Dragons are affecting, not that they control. Technically the Desert dragon isn't affecting anyone, though.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 12, 2009, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Malchor controls Orr+Strait of Malchor (water between Orr and the Ring of Fire).
Primordus controls the depths.
Drakkar controls the far shiverpeaks
Grothmar controls Ascalon areas
Deep Sea Dragon controls underwater (possible the Sea of Sorrows)

There are, at least 5 dragons - all the aforementioned in my post.

Also, lol Obrien, you say four but yet name 5 and forgot one that is known to be seperate.

draxynnic · Jun 12, 2009, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'd have to look at the Movement, but assuming that, simply because they are priests of Balthazar, they belong to the Zaishen, is just as bad as assuming the Shaman are all casters. Yes, those priests of Balthazar were the remnants of the Zaishen that reunited in Lion's Arch after the flooding of the Battle Isles.

Worse, I'd say, since shaman inherently implies use of magic.

The Zaishen and the Battle Isles may be the most prominent location of Balthazar worship, but it's far from the only site - we have the god-realm access sites in all three continents, for example, each of which likely has custodians of the shrine of Balthazar that aren't necessarily Zaishen (with the possible exception of Zin Ku Corridor). House Vasburg is devoted to Balthazar, so they'll certainly have priests of Balthazar who aren't Zaishen. According to the lore, Mhenlo is split between Dwayna and Balthazar (although in-game he always seems to go to the Dwayna side in practise) while in presearing, Grazden the Protector is found near the Balthazar statue, likely implying that, as is normal according to the lore for Protection and Smiting monks in general, Grazden is a follower of Balthazar.

So, in short, there are plenty of priests of Balthazar that aren't Zaishen. The Movement of the World does imply that the priests at Lion's Arch will at least be spiritual descendants of those at the Battle Isles (it talks about the priests from the Battle Isles being scattered and then regrouping at Lion's Arch, and they certainly seem to be behaving a lot like the Zaishen), but they could easily be a new group that has arisen to fill the same role.

Quote:

Why can't Grothmar BE the mountains that the dragon in question erupts from? Somewhere here, someone, I want to say Draxynnic, suggested something like what we see in Grothmar Wardowns being something of a cocoon or something. Not sure..I'll have to see if I can find it.

Wasn't me.

Although on another subject, I went looking into Ecology of the Charr about the status of the Shamans... and it's still unclear as to whether it covers all magic-users or whether there was some other factor that denoted a Charr as being a Shaman - and if the latter, why the Charr don't simply ensure that future magic-users don't have that factor. The best fit I can think of is that either the future Charr define a 'Shaman' simply as a descendant of the shamans of the past, or that there is some custom or belief that GW2-era shamans continue to maintain despite being relegated to being second-class citizens as a result. Either way, the other Charr put up with the Shamans that remain simply because they are too useful to slaughter out-of-hand even if they are also a potential threat.

Incidentally, a careful reading also reveals that the island volcano visible to the northwest of the EOTN map isn't Hrangmer - instead, it does in fact appear to be in the northeast region of Charr territory, the Flame Legion having retreated there after their defeat.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 12, 2009, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

The Zaishen and the Battle Isles may be the most prominent location of Balthazar worship, but it's far from the only site - we have the god-realm access sites in all three continents, for example, each of which likely has custodians of the shrine of Balthazar that aren't necessarily Zaishen (with the possible exception of Zin Ku Corridor). House Vasburg is devoted to Balthazar, so they'll certainly have priests of Balthazar who aren't Zaishen. According to the lore, Mhenlo is split between Dwayna and Balthazar (although in-game he always seems to go to the Dwayna side in practise) while in presearing, Grazden the Protector is found near the Balthazar statue, likely implying that, as is normal according to the lore for Protection and Smiting monks in general, Grazden is a follower of Balthazar.

So, in short, there are plenty of priests of Balthazar that aren't Zaishen. The Movement of the World does imply that the priests at Lion's Arch will at least be spiritual descendants of those at the Battle Isles (it talks about the priests from the Battle Isles being scattered and then regrouping at Lion's Arch, and they certainly seem to be behaving a lot like the Zaishen), but they could easily be a new group that has arisen to fill the same role.

The priests of Balthazar the article mentions (at least in my opinion) are those that are found at nearly every arena (especially before the Battle Isle) and are all around the Battle Isles. I don't mean "Monks/Priests that worship Balthazar," I mean these guys. Which I think the article means as well.

Neo Atomisk · Jun 12, 2009, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

It is bad when there is no evidence to support their existence. Also, I think Obrien was trying to indicate the areas the Ancient Dragons are affecting, not that they control. Technically the Desert dragon isn't affecting anyone, though.

But we do have evidence. In the movement it states that a dragon bursts out of the far shiverpeaks and flies over ascalon. Grothmar isn't in the shiverpeaks, Drakkar is controlling the Far shiverpeaks, Malchor has the southern part (maybe the desert).
The only 2 options are the ice cliff serpent or another dragon.

Mordakai · Jun 12, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

But we do have evidence. In the movement it states that a dragon bursts out of the far shiverpeaks and flies over ascalon. Grothmar isn't in the shiverpeaks, Drakkar is controlling the Far shiverpeaks, Malchor has the southern part (maybe the desert).
The only 2 options are the ice cliff serpent or another dragon.

Where does it say "far shiverpeaks"?

All I can find is a reference to "northern mountains."

Now, I know it's a stretch, but it could be the writer is considering the Grothmar Wardowns generally as "from the northern mountains."

If that's the case, the Grothmar Dragon could be the dragon that flies over Ascalon, which makes sense it would start in Charr territory as foreshadowing.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 12, 2009, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Neo, your ideas have started making you think that your thoughts are becoming more and more based on fact, than completely random and baseless hypothesis.

And Mordakai, it's not that big of a stretch, as south of Grothmar, it looks like there may be a small mountain range, which from the view of the human settlements (especially Ebonhawke) would mean that Grothmar came from "in or pass the Northern Mountains" even though there are more mountains north of Grothmar.

People need to remember, articles like the Movement are written with an in-game feel *i.e., not breaking the fourth wall (characters knowing they are in a game/book/movie/show)* which means that the articles would also be limited in perspective and thus, we know more than the writer (although in this case it is only the map we know more).

The EN areas, especially the North, could be very well still unexplored by humans - note how little we went through! - so from an in-game perspective, Grothmar could be north of "northern mountains" that, in the past, split Ascalon from the Charr Homelands.

Off-topic: Why did Anet ever have to hide the Charr Homelands' name from us? Typing out "Charr Homelands" every time is... annoying! >_<

Operative 14 · Jun 12, 2009, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Funny O14. Anyways, the Ice Pillar creature cannot be the Dragon of Ice and Snow, why? As I pointed out, it is south of the Norn settlements, and would push the Norn north when the Movement says they are pushed south.

By that logic though Drakkar would push the Norn East, since he's mostly in the far western portions of the domain. I agree with you that Drakkar is most likely the Dragon of Ice and Snow. However, hypothetically were the Ice Serpent to be the I&S dragon it would want to clear its domain (I.E. the Icy regions from the Northern shiverpeaks up to the polar caps), not fill it with a bunch of brawling weirdos, so it would try to herd them out to the south. I think the point I'm trying to make, though, is that just simply because it's in the southern areas of the domain does not mean it will necessarily drive them north. Maybe it flies overhead and attacks from the north, maybe it attacks in the dead middle of winter making it so the only open passages are to the south, maybe the Norn find it more brave to fight their way through the dragon while running away than to just simply run from it. Who knows, but I don't think we should discount such a possibility simply because of positioning. Again, however, I do agree that Drakkar is the most likely candidate for the I&S dragon.

--

The article says that LA is settled by corsairs and the remnants of the Battle Isles pretty clearly. That being the case, it seems like LA will be populated by the Zaishen, or their descendants and people who follow their order. Aside from the pirates.

Obrien Xp · Jun 12, 2009, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Also, lol Obrien, you say four but yet name 5 and forgot one that is known to be seperate.

I said that the 5th one was either that deep one the desert one or some other thing. Other than Prim, Drakk, Mal, and Groth. I don't have any other guaranteed dragons, I know there are 5 but I can't decide if its the deep sea thing or desert dragon.

Mordakai · Jun 12, 2009, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quick question: are we calling the Orr Dragon Malchor, just because of the Straights of Malchor?

Couldn't they be named after something else?

Neo Atomisk · Jun 12, 2009, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Quick question: are we calling the Orr Dragon Malchor, just because of the Straights of Malchor?

Couldn't they be named after something else?

it could easily be named after anything else. we've just been sticking to calling dragons by their locations. the only official name so far is Primordus.

Drakkar, Malchor, and Grothmar are just made-up names.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 12, 2009, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

By that logic though Drakkar would push the Norn East, since he's mostly in the far western portions of the domain.

Not really, of what we've seen, the only Norn settlement north of Drakkar is Sifhalla, with Longeye's directly east. So those at Sifhalla may be killed off (which is most likely the case) and the rest pushed south eventually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

I agree with you that Drakkar is most likely the Dragon of Ice and Snow. However, hypothetically were the Ice Serpent to be the I&S dragon it would want to clear its domain (I.E. the Icy regions from the Northern shiverpeaks up to the polar caps), not fill it with a bunch of brawling weirdos, so it would try to herd them out to the south.

As Leon said and his reasoning for, on his map, not covering the Far Shiverpeaks north of what we've seen as the Dragon of Snow and Ice's domain, we don't know that he goes "up to the polar caps". Though it would be logical that it would push further north than what we've seen, and if that were the case then it would still push them north (as the world of Tyria seems to be a globe) or kill them off completely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

I think the point I'm trying to make, though, is that just simply because it's in the southern areas of the domain does not mean it will necessarily drive them north. Maybe it flies overhead and attacks from the north, maybe it attacks in the dead middle of winter making it so the only open passages are to the south, maybe the Norn find it more brave to fight their way through the dragon while running away than to just simply run from it. Who knows, but I don't think we should discount such a possibility simply because of positioning. Again, however, I do agree that Drakkar is the most likely candidate for the I&S dragon.

bolded part I laughed at because, according to the norn, the far shiverpeaks is implied to be the same all year round. Anyways, I don't think the Dragon of Ice and Snow would think to the extent of "flying over and attacking from the north" and I don't think that the Norn would fight through to run away - if you're able to break through, then you most likely have a chance, so I would think many, if not all, would then attack the Dragon's army from behind if that were the case (instead of continuing far south enough to encounter the Dredge).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

The article says that LA is settled by corsairs and the remnants of the Battle Isles pretty clearly. That being the case, it seems like LA will be populated by the Zaishen, or their descendants and people who follow their order. Aside from the pirates.

I think it would be both. Corsairs, who enjoy money and any means to get it, I think would love to help "organize" (that is, reap from the benefits of charging spectators) the arenas. And some would, like any other fighter, find it a good sport to join in the arenas.

And I'm sure some would think the Hall of Heroes is nicely filled with some gold. ;P

draxynnic · Jun 15, 2009, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Off-topic: Why did Anet ever have to hide the Charr Homelands' name from us? Typing out "Charr Homelands" every time is... annoying! >_<

Possibly because it hasn't been given a name as such. The Charr may simply not bother naming their territory as anything other than 'our territory', while their neighbours may just have named it some iteration of Charrland or "the Directionlands" (Eastlands for the Norn, Northlands for Ascalon).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Not really, of what we've seen, the only Norn settlement north of Drakkar is Sifhalla, with Longeye's directly east. So those at Sifhalla may be killed off (which is most likely the case) and the rest pushed south eventually.

Actually, there are others that aren't outposts - Egil's Perch, Volsung's Stead, and Jora's homestead. None of these are particularly defensible, though - it's possible that those inhabitants that survived Drakkar's initial appearance (if any) were able to get to Gunnar's Hold before Drakkar consolidated its control and started pushing.

Or, as I speculated earlier, the Norn may have been split in two with some of their population pushed north instead, but that doesn't happen to be the group that Norn PCs arise from.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 15, 2009, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Possibly because it hasn't been given a name as such. The Charr may simply not bother naming their territory as anything other than 'our territory', while their neighbours may just have named it some iteration of Charrland or "the Directionlands" (Eastlands for the Norn, Northlands for Ascalon).

Shortly after EN released, Gaile said that there was a name for the Charr Homelands, but it wasn't going to be announced until GW2. >_>

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Actually, there are others that aren't outposts - Egil's Perch, Volsung's Stead, and Jora's homestead. None of these are particularly defensible, though - it's possible that those inhabitants that survived Drakkar's initial appearance (if any) were able to get to Gunnar's Hold before Drakkar consolidated its control and started pushing.

Or, as I speculated earlier, the Norn may have been split in two with some of their population pushed north instead, but that doesn't happen to be the group that Norn PCs arise from.

Yeah, I realized I forgot those three, but didn't bother to correct myself. I wouldn't doubt some Norn being pushed North, but the point of what I said was to help with how the Ice Pillar lizard couldn't be the Dragon of Ice and Snow. But, meh. Losing interest in this topic.

Edit: To bring this topic back to the Dragons as a whole. One of the many "suspected GW2 concept arts" found is titled "Storm Lord" and shows a Dragon in it. To me, it looks like it is over Augury Rock in the Mesa. Perhaps concept art for the Desert Dragon?

If so, that would mean Grothmar isn't the Desert Dragon. Though, concept art is not something to go fully off of *sadly*.

If Grothmar isn't the Desert Dragon, I'm not sure how GW2 will be... that would mean 6 "god rivaling" ancient creatures in such a small area. It kind of seems... silly to me if that is the case (if lucky, then the Deep Sea Dragon is further away from Tyria that implied via Movement, and the flying south dragon and the Desert Dragon are the same).

If it were 6 "god rivaling" ancient creatures across the planet of Tyria, that would be a different story (because 1: Why are they only in the continent of Tyria? 2: If they were elsewhere as well, there would be way to many and would just get repetative and boring, and 3: how are normal mortals suppose to kill so many "god rivaling" creatures that are as big as Giganticus Lupicus *or bigger* and those Crystal Desert statues....)

Gmr Leon · Jun 15, 2009, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Not to sound like a jerk, but I'm going to list this off for brevity's sake.

1. Note the mountains in the background.
2. Note the detail on the "rock" towards its center at the bottom.
3. Note all the green at the bottom.
4. Note lack of water that's in front of Augury Rock.
5. Note the tree/plantlife in the foreground.
6. Note the intricacy of the center-bottom piece.
7. Note the fact that this would be a very impressive look for the Iron Citadel.
8. Note that Grothmar flies over Ascalon, and probably over the Iron Citadel.

Combine the last two, and you get a really amazing piece of concept art that not only shows off what may be Grothmar's awe-inspiring form, but the intimidating look of what may be the Iron Citadel.

...9. Note the MAY BE's people other than Konig.

Also, if we want a shorthand form of Charr homelands, we could always use Adan. Garfaz says it in a similar manner to Ascalon in his quote here.

As to the Storm Lord name, without water, you haven't a storm, right? (Ignoring the obvious sandstorm/dust storms.)

Konig Des Todes · Jun 15, 2009, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Not to sound like a jerk, but I'm going to list this off for brevity's sake.

1. Note the mountains in the background.
2. Note the detail on the "rock" towards its center at the bottom.
3. Note all the green at the bottom.
4. Note lack of water that's in front of Augury Rock.
5. Note the tree/plantlife in the foreground.
6. Note the intricacy of the center-bottom piece.
7. Note the fact that this would be a very impressive look for the Iron Citadel.
8. Note that Grothmar flies over Ascalon, and probably over the Iron Citadel.

Combine the last two, and you get a really amazing piece of concept art that not only shows off what may be Grothmar's awe-inspiring form, but the intimidating look of what may be the Iron Citadel.

...9. Note the MAY BE's people other than Konig.

Not sure if you are saying that it is not Augury Rock but the Iron Citadel, or if it is Augury Rock... but here's my response to how it is Augury Rock...

1. The Mesa is in an area which declines into the ground, Ascalon doesn't have many mountains, if I remember correctly. It's more like broken land, though that could be what is depicted.
2. After we Ascend, we never see Augury Rock in its "opened" state - nor do we see it as we go up the rocks (we view from the inside). I see in the concept at the bottom an "opening" then the design at the top, the rest looks like rock to me.
3. The Mesa is filled with plantlife, unlike most of the desert.
4. There actually seems to be water there, for me, but with a yellowish tint almost making it look like a liquid sulfur substand, possibly due to the lighting (could also be that the water dries up).
5. -points at number 3-
6. -points at number 2-
7. I would actually view the Iron Citadel to be more spire-like than a huge block with designs.
8. Possible, or to the east of it. If Grothmar is the Desert Dragon, this could still be concept art for it since we don't see the back of the dragon. And would still work as Augury Rock.
9. -points at number 9-

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Combine the last two, and you get a really amazing piece of concept art that not only shows off what may be Grothmar's awe-inspiring form, but the intimidating look of what may be the Iron Citadel.

Doesn't look that intimidating to me, even taking out the dragon. Just looks... very intricecly designed, More-so for Charr architecture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Also, if we want a shorthand form of Charr homelands, we could always use Adan. Garfaz says it in a similar manner to Ascalon in his quote here.

Never knew that, but I'd have to say that would be members of Garfaz's warband. |Edit: Then again, the second word/name (Farzot) could be a Charr word, and not a warband name|

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

As to the Storm Lord name, without water, you haven't a storm, right? (Ignoring the obvious sandstorm/dust storms.)

Which would also work with "Water Dragon" - ironically enough, after we say not to use "Water Dragon" we get a possible "Storm" dragon....

Perhaps the reason why "Grothmar" goes to the Crystal Desert - if in fact the same as the Desert Dragon - is because it recalls there being an body of water, but the sea is now a desert, so it goes from "Water Dragon" to "Desert Dragon" (for no-name titling sake?)

Gmr Leon · Jun 15, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

1. The Mesa is in an area which declines into the ground, Ascalon doesn't have many mountains, if I remember correctly. It's more like broken land, though that could be what is depicted.

Ascalon doesn't have many mountains within its territory, but it is surrounded by mountains to the south and west. The Shiverpeaks are noted for their enormous size, and the ability to see them from vast distances, after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

2. After we Ascend, we never see Augury Rock in its "opened" state - nor do we see it as we go up the rocks (we view from the inside). I see in the concept at the bottom an "opening" then the design at the top, the rest looks like rock to me.

We see enough of Augury Rock in its opened state to know that there isn't a very intricately designed circle near its bottom. We also see enough of it to know that it isn't opened in a finely cut manner, as by human hands, as the picture seems to depict.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

7. I would actually view the Iron Citadel to be more spire-like than a huge block with designs.

This is the downside to both our arguments, as neither of us nor anyone else has ever seen any solid, established Charr architecture. It's easier to assume that what we see in the Northlands in Eye of the North are merely camps, rather than anything permanent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Doesn't look that intimidating to me, even taking out the dragon. Just looks... very intricately designed, More-so for Charr architecture.

Large, especially extremely large, usually tends to imply intimidating to humans. Looking at in a picture as we are, of course it wouldn't, but seeing it in "person", I imagine it would.

Neo Atomisk · Jun 16, 2009, 04:42 AM // 04:42

the main problem i have with that pic being in the crystal desert is the flock of birds on the right side.

jesus christ this firefly is annoying...

Konig Des Todes · Jun 16, 2009, 05:11 AM // 05:11

There are birds in the Crystal Desert/Desolation. o_o